tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post8502955105688341228..comments2024-03-25T22:12:49.064-07:00Comments on Gerald Weinberg's Secrets of Writing and Consulting: Beyond Agile ProgrammingGerald M. Weinberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05902673055244863609noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-64666648278994863892016-03-08T20:26:22.745-08:002016-03-08T20:26:22.745-08:00Trevor, there was a lot more to structured program...Trevor, there was a lot more to structured programming than eliminating gotos, though that was an important part, and it was partly successful. But, if you look at lots of code still being written today, you'll see that the goto is still around, just as there are still a lot of people around who think that if a cure doesn't hurt, it can't be working. Change doesn't happen in a binary way, either in one person or across an entire population. That's the way it's been for structured programming and other movements, and that's the way it will be (and is) for Agile programming.<br /><br />Anyway, Trevor, I'm very glad you asked. Lots of people need to understand the way this works.Gerald M. Weinberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05902673055244863609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-40153716564455932622016-03-08T18:30:08.932-08:002016-03-08T18:30:08.932-08:00Huh? Didn't structured programming succeed. I ...Huh? Didn't structured programming succeed. I thought the whole idea was to eliminate goto statements. Hasn't that been completely achieved?rukawahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15436535886830566394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-35182856250341281702011-07-24T12:29:52.404-07:002011-07-24T12:29:52.404-07:00It's really hard to fight management, even fro...It's really hard to fight management, even from within management. Toyota, nudged by W. Edwards Deming, has more market cap than all other car companies in the world. I claim it's because they take the time to train (acculturate) their managers (executives, leaders, bosses) for literally years. See for example John Shook's "The A3 Process; Managing to Learn" where he shows a "trick" to be used in problem solving. <br /><br />But even with successful Toyota and GM shared operation of NUMMI, GM couldn't roll out their findings to the rest of GM in two decades. See the NPR show from a few months ago in "This American Life" about NUMMI.<br /><br />You, Jerry, and Tom GIlb, and Johanna Rothman, and other colleagues at AYE are Treasures to be shared and contemplated, and mined for inspiration. But then comes the hard part, application. <br /><br />New ideas are dangerous. They seldom help much. When they do help, they cause much turmoil and many new problems. This is much like the random mutation which potentiates evolution. It almost never helps. <br /><br />All humans suffer from ascorbic acid insufficiency because one of the four genes for the enzyme chain that converts glucose into ascorbic acid was accidentally broken millions of years ago. The basic tools needed to discover this are younger than either you or me.<br /><br />We also suffer from the human reasoning system which was built not to find the truth, but instead to find the winning argument, quickly. It was enough to facilitate group hunting, and organized raiding, but it's not so good at introducing broader scale and longer term cooperation such as needed to cope with complex projects. <br /><br />The technological tools to observe and repair such problems may possibly appear in the next few decades. If we're lucky. Meanwhile, we muddle through. Thanks for helping us muddle.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15338062997104070546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-60989301160004159002011-06-21T11:57:13.027-07:002011-06-21T11:57:13.027-07:00After seeing Bruce's name in the comment, I we...After seeing Bruce's name in the comment, I went and looked at his blog. He had a review of Seth Godin's Linchpin there. In that review he talks about the idea of slow change. That resonated for me. And it reminded me of a podcast that was an interview with David A. Black. One of the things he talked about was an excessive pace of change. He was talking about technical tools. I wonder if there is something about pacing change in non-technical areas as well. Perhaps part of the problem with Agile adoption is that people are trying to force change at a pace that is faster than can be sustained (for successful adoption).<br /><br />My current thought is that the root phenomenon for Agile to really make deep and lasting penetration is to have an education system that fosters valuing one's own experience over the pronouncements of purported authorities and experts.<br /><br />Expanding on Yves's exploration of the metaphor, I think getting more jam relies on understanding and respecting the underlying organic processes that generate your raw material.<br /><br />Best,<br />DonAnthroToolshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11801822738585960532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-34035983444201046362011-06-15T07:03:34.242-07:002011-06-15T07:03:34.242-07:00hi Jerry,
One way I alway look at "the law o...hi Jerry,<br /><br />One way I alway look at "the law of rasberry jam", was it was telling us, we can't avoid this. In other words: the fact that we spread it wider, it will be thinner.<br /><br />After reading this, I'm thinking: how else can we look at this law?<br /><br />Maybe it tells us if we want to spread agile better, we need more JAM. The question now is: what is jam in this case. And how can we have more quality jam.YvesHanoullehttp://www.hanoulle.benoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-81753513658581901342011-06-09T19:50:52.783-07:002011-06-09T19:50:52.783-07:00> What might that idea be, and where might we f...> What might that idea be, and where might we find the tipping point (that enable effective practices to become standards)? <<br /><br />Congruent management.Steven M Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07169129800513090519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-76167788190860943242011-06-09T11:32:34.822-07:002011-06-09T11:32:34.822-07:00Great post and comments.
I feel as though the ann...Great post and comments.<br /><br />I feel as though the anniversary of the Agile Manifesto has occasioned at lot of Agile is Dead, Long Live Agile ebb and flow.<br /><br />On the topic of grand change, I wonder if Kuhn's observation on change in scientific thinking/research applies - that it takes a generation for the change to occur, because it usually requires physical replacement of people for the change to occur. <br /><br />Granted, one would expect the rate of change or turn-over to be greated in the commercial world than the academic. On the other hand, those who wield the most money/organizational power at this point are the ones who prospered during the structured programming revolution.<br /><br />Best,<br />DonDonald Coxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-60147609356592849142011-06-09T11:10:47.315-07:002011-06-09T11:10:47.315-07:00Bruce,
I'm "equating the two" only i...Bruce,<br />I'm "equating the two" only in the sense of the dynamics of adoption and rejection. I'm warning the agile people that they're exposed to the same human dynamic, unless they change something.<br /><br />As one tweeter reminded us, "Beware the Law of Raspberry Jam." (From The Secrets of Consulting)Gerald M. Weinberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05902673055244863609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-83578677883766899502011-06-09T08:29:20.676-07:002011-06-09T08:29:20.676-07:00I also lived through the "structured" re...I also lived through the "structured" revolution but I would absolutely not equate the two. I immersed in structured and discovered the empty pieces; it really was a lot of sham.<br /><br />Agile is a way of thinking about communicating around problem solving, not a particular set of blessed techniques as structured was.Bruce Eckelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03809714935758594746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-56955640988221470512011-06-08T23:16:40.202-07:002011-06-08T23:16:40.202-07:00So it's the people, not the process, that make...So it's the people, not the process, that makes good software. :) <br /><br />Seems like that's the eternal truth that outlives different processes. <br /><br />kenKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891390578699471167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-92213678254232237032011-06-08T23:09:30.201-07:002011-06-08T23:09:30.201-07:00Steve, your comment made me think of something I m...Steve, your comment made me think of something I missed. The ability to substitute today's name for yesterday's suggest that we might try something different this time around—something that would increase the penetration of today's idea beyond that of yesterday's. So what things didn't we do in the past that might just push, say, agile practices over some tipping point, enabling them to become a standard throughout the industry. (Not the <i>only</i> standard, but one of several standards.)<br /><br />What might that idea be, and where might we find the tipping point?Gerald M. Weinberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05902673055244863609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-784386373417289282011-06-08T19:45:29.593-07:002011-06-08T19:45:29.593-07:00Jerry,
It's uncanny how substituting a new su...Jerry,<br /><br />It's uncanny how substituting a new subject for an old subject reincarnated the wisdom of the surrounding words. Nice work!<br /><br />"No matter how much you know how or know when, some problems won't yield to present knowledge, and some aspects of the problem nobody currently understands, so humility is always in order."<br /><br />Humility: a necessary ingredient for solving problems by individuals, teams and organizations.<br /><br />Can humility be taught in a classroom? Or created by a mission statement?<br /><br />Hugs,<br />SteveSteven M Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07169129800513090519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-54038646999875691772011-06-08T12:34:00.731-07:002011-06-08T12:34:00.731-07:00"So, what do we have to do so that the lofty..."So, what do we have to do so that the lofty goals of ours are not forgotten by the majority in twenty more years?<<br /><br />Excellent question. That why I (and my commentors) teach and consult and write books). For me, I teach the Problem Solving Leadership workshop (PSL) and the Organizational Change Shop and the AYE conference for the sort of people who will lead the changes and make them stick.<br /><br />We call these people "change artists," and I have also written guides for them, such as "Becoming a Change Artist." The more change artists we can grow (rather than mere lecturers), the better our chances of pulling our profession up by its bootstraps.Gerald M. Weinberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05902673055244863609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-72811503628330603292011-06-08T08:08:46.761-07:002011-06-08T08:08:46.761-07:00> So, what do we have to do so
> that the l...> So, what do we have to do so <br />> that the lofty goals of ours are > not forgotten by the majority in > twenty more years? That's the <br />> big issue that's facing those of > us who want to "continue on this > path."<br /><br />Roughly, that's my question. With profound respect for the wonderful books you've written (both Jerry and JB!), and that I frequently pass around, buy as gifts and otherwise recommend, I've noticed that the ideas therin are somewhat slow to pass in to practice, and that most organizations still find them somewhat new and unorthodox. Can this change? How can this change? <br /><br />It might be that books aren't the whole picture... what else needs to be in place? My bias is to say 'relationships', where ideas are amplified by presence... strawberry jam, more than raspberry jelly. Agile, at its best, seems to focus on 'It's the team, not the technology' for answers to how to be better... something I know you, Jerry, care very much about.Pathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08429002264621926536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-23846448658146834412011-06-08T08:06:03.472-07:002011-06-08T08:06:03.472-07:00You've hit the nail on the head with the defin...You've hit the nail on the head with the definition of "progressive" companies. Agile, or not, companies that meet your "progressive" definition get it have a better chance of success than companies who rely on the latest fad.Jason Littlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13506611334869513940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-989255713968779552011-06-08T08:04:26.293-07:002011-06-08T08:04:26.293-07:00Hi Jerry,
But still, though things look familiar,...Hi Jerry,<br /><br />But still, though things look familiar, we are improving, aren't we?<br /><br />You know this article: Life-cycle of a silver bullet? http://www.crosstalkonline.org/storage/issue-archives/2003/200307/200307-Sheard.pdf<br /><br />Gr. RiniRinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10117247090244699559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-57382742826534582372011-06-08T05:57:38.879-07:002011-06-08T05:57:38.879-07:00Jerry, I understand the mild cynicism inherent in ...Jerry, I understand the mild cynicism inherent in this essay. It accounts for the reason I try not to sell agile as a pre-packaged solution. I know the power of agile-related thinking; it transformed my life allowing me to retire at 34. I recognise that the thinking itself wasn't particularly agile-specific, but agile methods inspired me. I can only hope it inspires other to expand their thinking.J. B. Rainsbergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16213943899864372362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-89598399456987524932011-06-08T04:34:50.499-07:002011-06-08T04:34:50.499-07:00Thank you very much for expressing this, Gerry. Sp...Thank you very much for expressing this, Gerry. Spot on! It does seem that those who ignore history are sentenced to repeat it.<br /><br />However, I'd like to point out that the 'fashion-driven' nature of so-called 'progress' is not limited to IT. <br /><br />Olaf suggests that "Agile, or Lean, for that matter… are about new ways of thinking…". Sorry, but hardly 'new'. The elements of 'flow production' (what we now call 'lean thinking') have been shown by Bob Emiliani to have been pretty well formulated in the 1920s by Frank G. Woollard of the Morris Engines Ltd.<br /><br />What's more, some elements of lean thinking can be traced back to the shipwrights of the Carthaginian & Roman navies c. 242BC.<br /><br />Mindsets take a long time to change. Individual mindset and group culture must relate and interact in subtle ways (which we don't yet understand, IMO). So whereas Henry Ford's concepts of mass production gained widespread acceptance, the principles of flow production (including 'agile practices') have yet to be truly appreciated or widely adopted.<br /><br />I'm pleased to say I have been learning from you, Gerry, since the early 1970s. I continue to do so, and look forward to further inspiration.<br />Best regards, <br /> GrantGrant (PG) Rulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13907361304896404266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-71954307271627971112011-06-08T00:46:41.415-07:002011-06-08T00:46:41.415-07:00Olaf, I totally agree with you about what we ought...Olaf, I totally agree with you about what we ought to be doing. My questions are about whether we are doing it--and if the "we" is a small set of energetic pioneers like you, then yes, we are doing it.<br /><br />But will we affect the vast majority? So far, not yet, and agile is not the only attempt to do more than change the way people write programs. Part of the lesson from the past it the way people have forgotten the non-mechanical parts of that movement, and others before it whose very names have been forgotten.<br /><br />So, what do we have to do so that the lofty goals of ours are not forgotten by the majority in twenty more years? That's the big issue that's facing those of us who want to "continue on this path."<br /><br />I hope we get some answers. I'll try to put some ideas on this blog in the coming weeks and months. (And many such ideas are already in my books, as well as in the books of others. Now we must get them out of the books and into practice so they drive out those 20th century business models.)Gerald M. Weinberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05902673055244863609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25922407.post-46203948202034002482011-06-07T23:35:07.728-07:002011-06-07T23:35:07.728-07:00Jerry,
Insightful as always...:-)
I like the style...Jerry,<br />Insightful as always...:-)<br />I like the style of this "experiment", and I agree that your observations match a certain, prominent, marketing view of "Agile". And, yet...<br />There is a difference, and it's substantial. Some new style of programming (OO, structured, functional, ...), any new practice or "the new computer" are intended to be specific solutions for specific challenges or problems. Correctly applied, they do the expected job, and they might lead to amazing results--if, and only if, you have the right people sharing a problem solving mindset.<br />Agile, or Lean, for that matter, are neither about solutions nor about programming. They are about new ways of thinking about human interactions in problem solving--values, principles and disciplines to better collaborate on a common goal.<br />This is new. Not as new as the latest computer, but new to management and employees of most enterprises. We need to view this on a larger scale, I think:<br />Our current education system is shaped by 18th century enlightenment and 19th century industrialisation thinking. Organisational structure and management are safely rooted in early 20th century business models.<br />Daniel Pink calls this century the conceptual age. We need a whole new mind, people want drive more than money, Linchpins make more of a difference than methods and practices.<br />It's only starting. What you and I observe are all early adopters. Being the first to HAVE an iPad does not mean you use it and change your information consumption habits. "Buying" Agile does not change anything, doing it, improving it, letting it change our thinking does.<br />So I'll continue on this path. To me, it's much more than a fad.<br />Thanks for inspiring me to write this down!<br />Take care <br />OlafOlafLewitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18113286300456742846noreply@blogger.com